Boot Camp legislation introduced today

[Crusader]

Well lets put that comment to the test.

I ask everyone replies to this question on what they would do and how they would react.

Lets say next John Key announces that he intends on increasing our numbers in Afghanistan quite considerably where it is his dream for us to have an entire brigade of infantry over there supporting ops. To achieve this he needs to conscript people into the army.
I would like to know that if every person in this forum got a letter saying 'congratulations you are now in the Army and you have the pleasure of serving our glorious country in Afghanistan for a term no less than 6 months,' how many of you:
A: would be proud to be selected to serve your country; and
B: would be totally committed to give it your best and if the occasion called for it, give your life to serve your country.

I am willing to bet that there wouldn't be very many here would be thrilled with that idea and would do anything they could to get out of it.

That is why I said what I said about conscription, because I know I would only want someone watching my back that is totally committed to be there.

[AnFaolchu]

I'd go... tis in my blood for a start!

I ask you a question Crusader... just how much Military history do you actually know?

[Lovelee]

Well lets put that comment to the test.

I ask everyone replies to this question on what they would do and how they would react.

Lets say next John Key announces that he intends on increasing our numbers in Afghanistan quite considerably where it is his dream for us to have an entire brigade of infantry over there supporting ops. To achieve this he needs to conscript people into the army.
I would like to know that if every person in this forum got a letter saying 'congratulations you are now in the Army and you have the pleasure of serving our glorious country in Afghanistan for a term no less than 6 months,' how many of you:
A: would be proud to be selected to serve your country; and
B: would be totally committed to give it your best and if the occasion called for it, give your life to serve your country.

I am willing to bet that there wouldn't be very many here would be thrilled with that idea and would do anything they could to get out of it.

That is why I said what I said about conscription, because I know I would only want someone watching my back that is totally committed to be there.

I dont like questions like that - what if neither of the statements relate?

[bump head benny]

oooooooo......Im scared 

[DidiMau69]

Benny

There are a lot more people reading these posts than are responding to them.

I would think that the majority would have now formed an opinion about you and about me.

As Crusader says, you're a hero on the keyboard. I wonder if you could walk the talk?

I do.

[bump head benny]

Smatter mate your machismo feeling a bit under threat?  Ive got no probs in meeting you or anyone fior a ahem...chit chat......like I said before...ooooo...Im scared ....

[Ferney]

The govt is not placing young offenders in the army to be future soldiers.   Its not the army, its a boot to teach them some discipline and challenges which could make a difference.   Ex soldiers might be keen to be part of it. 
Scratching my head why armed forces serving overseas comes into it. 

[bump head benny]

Same here. 

[Ferney]

Haha.  Its not a boot.  Its a boot camp!     

[DidiMau69]

The govt is not placing young offenders in the army to be future soldiers.   Its not the army, its a boot to teach them some discipline and challenges which could make a difference.   Ex soldiers might be keen to be part of it. 
Scratching my head why armed forces serving overseas comes into it. 

Ferney,

It's the 'association' with the Army that is the cause for concern. It has been promoted as an Army based and run program. It is to be run by the Army. There is evidence that previous 'trainee's have been identified as having 'joined the Army'. Soldiers will be detailed to run it. As they were with previous programs - Limited Service Volunteers etc.

This sort of thing is not what people join the military to do and I can tell you right now is an unpopular imposition. I would go even further and state that the best soldiers are not selected and will not be selected to waste their time on these baby sitting programs. Our military is over stretched in it's commitment to current deployments.

The alliteration to 'armed forces serving overseas' is an attempt to illustrate that the mythology attached to the value of 'military training' is just that, a fantasy and a myth.

Those who ignore history and experience are doomed to repeat it.

[Ferney]

I understand where you are coming from Didiau.

What I read was that the 12 months programme would be a military type camp programme and up to 3 months residential training, using army type facilities.   

[Crusader]

I have made this post several times but yet it falls on deaf ears everytime I make it:
I want a simple answer to the below question
How is modern military training where the instructor that has absoultely no power to force someone to do something they do not want to do, be considered the solution for our juvenielle criminals??
I don't know. I may be missing something. But I look at the question I just posted and keep thinking that there is no way to make it successful. Can someone who advocates the boot camp idea explain to me how it is going to work in this PC world??

[bump head benny]

Can you explain how doing sweet FA about those kids be any better???

[AnFaolchu]

I have made this post several times but yet it falls on deaf ears everytime I make it:
I want a simple answer to the below question
How is modern military training where the instructor that has absoultely no power to force someone to do something they do not want to do, be considered the solution for our juvenielle criminals??
I don't know. I may be missing something. But I look at the question I just posted and keep thinking that there is no way to make it successful. Can someone who advocates the boot camp idea explain to me how it is going to work in this PC world??

Could you actually answer my question as to how much Military history you actually know?

[bump head benny]

Actually Ive got a question for you Crusader.....can you explain to me how the Army and ATC  going to work in this PC world?? After all, youre not allowed beastings anymore right? its all PC touchy feely training these days, the corporals and drill sergeants arent even allowed to swear now....sheeeeeet please try to keep up with times ok?

[Lovelee]

Mentors turn around lives of young offenders

An elderly couple politely asked me whether they were watching a new batch of army recruits going through their paces in the Far North.

They had no idea many of these uniformed young boys were hardened members of Auckland street gangs sent on the MYND (Male Youth New Direction) programme by the Youth Court.

The oldest should have been studying for his NCEA level 2 or playing for his school 1st XV. They had hundreds of convictions between them, including extremely serious assaults in which their victims were lucky to be alive.

But that day they marched in perfect unison, their clothing neatly pressed, their chins up and backs straight.

The beaming elderly gentleman leaned over to me and said: "It makes you feel proud, doesn't it ?"

It was the clearest indication of something missing earlier from this lot: a sense of purpose and pride.

I was privileged to watch a group of mentors on the MYND programme make breakthroughs with a bunch of under-age offenders where social agencies, schools and families had failed, despite their best efforts.

The low-budget programme is run in a small part along paramilitary lines. It has helped to turn around hundreds of Auckland's worst youth offenders over the past eight years.

Its success rates are notable: a 58 per cent drop in total reoffending and a 71 per cent drop in serious crime.

But despite support from Principal Youth Court Judge Andrew Becroft, who says the MYND approach is both restorative and cost-effective, questions are being asked about boot camps' effectiveness.

Detractors say young criminals are almost certain to reoffend and a military-style autocratic approach would only aggravate those they are trying to rehabilitate.

While boot camps are vital for instructors to forge the bonds necessary with their proteges, they cannot work in isolation.

It would be a big assignment for Defence Force staff, who normally work with mature and willing trainees, to turn around young criminals ordered there by the courts.

The MYND mentors and social workers, who spend on average 350 hours with youth offenders over the programme's four months, want their contact time extended to 11 months.

The Government should be applauded for addressing youth crime but the success of the proposed programmes hinges on the effective co-ordination of resourcing, probably best handled by a lead agency. It must invest in staff capable of handling issues not solved by a good bollocking.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10557884&ref=rss

[bump head benny]

There are privately run camps popping up too, by all accounts they seem to be giving the kids motivation, and goals to strive for. According to the woman who was interviewed on Good Morning today 90% of their boot camp is educational, 10% is hard physical training (just like in the army) apparently the kids stay in for 3 months and come out with 120 unit standards. They didnt even use army trainers so Crusaders fears are totally unfounded. (as I knew they were)
 

[Ferney]

I posted a link to the programme Lovelee is referring to earlier in the week.  Its a Counties Manukau programme that has been running for 7 years.   
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/crime/news/article.cfm?c_id=30&objectid=10557112

[Lovelee]

Legal experts criticise 'boot camps' bill

Updated at 7:01pm on 26 February 2009

A bill that would see some of the worst young offenders sentenced to military style 'boot camps' has been criticised at a legal forum.

New Zealand's top judges, law academics and officials are attending the Criminal Justice Forum in Wellington to look at causes of offending.

The Children, Young Persons and their Families Amendment Bill passed its first reading last week.

It includes the proposal of a military-style camp programme to target New Zealand's 40 most serious young offenders.

But the boot camps were criticised by some at the forum, including Principal Youth Court Judge Andrew Becroft.

Judge Becroft says they are a comprehensive failure in the Western world, with spectacularly high re-offending rates.

The judge also told the forum there is a second and third generational underclass living in New Zealand.

Judge Becroft says most serious youth offenders who go on to be serious adult offenders, come from high risk, challenged and disadvantaged families.

Judge Becroft says these people - mostly young men - often come from transient families, are born to young mothers, have left school at an early age, are addicted to drugs or alcohol and have had a significant involvement with Child, Youth and Family.

http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/stories/2009/02/26/12459ecb8b0a

Interesting that this Forum cant see that the idea of 'military style' is not whats needed, especially Beecroft.  Whats needed is some of those alternative ones we have discussed here.

But what also stands out - is this gonna mean yet another flip flop for Mr Flop Key??

[DidiMau69]

These are the people who are dealing with the young criminals and who know what they are talking about.

I would go further and say that some can only be classed as feral. If you've ever tried to tame a wild cat you will know that you seem to succeed, then one day..............

I work with them. I've seen them come through the Youth Court system and then graduate into the Adult system. There is one thing that characterises them all - not one of them has actually done anything wrong, they are innocent, it is always someone else's fault. It seems to be a criminal trait to shift the blame.

[Lovelee]

It seems to be a criminal trait to shift the blame.

I beg to differ, Didi.  This group has been up and running for many years, and I still see posters laying blame for anything and everything at the feet of someone else.  I cant see any reason why criminals should be any different from the bulk of the population.

Im sure you dont consider this 'criminal trait' to be a part of the majority, do you??   

[Kiwithrottlejockey]

Judge puts boot into boot camps

By EMILY WATT - The Dominion Post | Friday, 27 February 2009

The traditional "boot camp" for young offenders was "arguably the least successful sentence in the Western world", the principal Youth Court judge says.

"It made them healthier, fitter, faster, but they were still burglars, just harder to catch, " Judge Andrew Becroft said.

He said physical programmes backed up by mentoring and family support could work, but New Zealand's corrective training camps, which ran up till 2002, found 92 per cent of young attendees reoffended within a year.

"It was a spectacular, tragic, flawed, failure," he said.

The Government's proposed military-style activity camps, introduced this month as part of its 100-day urgency plan, has worried some justice and youth experts, who say overseas and local experience show military-style boot camps do not work.

Judge Becroft made it clear he was not commenting on government policy, but said any debate on the merits of a so-called "boot camp" must be clear on what was being discussed.

An outdoor, physically challenging programme run by quality instructors, combined with intense family therapy, drug and alcohol counselling, education and other support could be beneficial.

Kim Workman, of Reducing Crime and Punishment, said American experience showed that when the military-style "short, sharp, shock" approach was combined with mentoring and after-care, it still made no difference at all.

A physical programme based on a therapeutic model could be beneficial, he said, and there were already a handful of outdoor-based programmes in the country that were working well.

Social Development Minister Paula Bennett agreed the old boot camps lacked the necessary follow-up support to work.

But the Government's proposed military-style activity camps would be followed by six to nine months of intensive mentoring, she said.

"At no point are we going to throw them in there, get them fit, beat them around a little bit and send them back on the street, that's just not it at all."

Ms Bennett has said the three-month camps for the country's 40 most dangerous young offenders would use army-type facilities and training methods to teach self-discipline, personal responsibility and community values as well as literacy, numeracy and drug and alcohol support.

Ms Bennett agreed the proposal was contentious and welcomed healthy public debate. She said she had been congratulated by police and army personnel who strongly support the scheme.

The policy is a favourite of Prime Minister John Key, who raised it in his state of the nation speech last year, talking about the "1000 ticking time bombs" of youth offenders on the streets.

Auckland University psychologist Ian Lambie agreed boot camps alone would not work but could be effective with long-term follow-up. He said the Defence Force would need support to deal with the highest-risk youths, and more skilled clinical psychologists and social workers were needed.

"At the end of the day, we've got an inadequate workforce," he said. "There's no specialist training in child and adolescent psychology in New Zealand and it's a gap."

http://www.stuff.co.nz/4861598a11.html


As I have already posted in this thread over and over and over and over again: Boot Camps are a huge failure worldwide and Jonkey, “Crusher Colins”, and co., seem determined to repeat a FAILURE over and over and over and over again!!

[Ferney]

Well I know a young man who went to a boot camp and it worked for him.   
It won't be 100% successful but if it reduces their offending, then its worth doing.   The knockers ignore the fact that the boot camp is only 3 months out of a 12 month programme.

[Lovelee]

Was it military style Ferney?

Im starting to realise that the powers that be havent recognised "boot camp" doesnt have to mean 'military'.

[DidiMau69]

It seems to be a criminal trait to shift the blame.



Im sure you dont consider this 'criminal trait' to be a part of the majority, do you??   

Not at all. The majority of the population, as would the majority on this board, accept that there is a consequence to their actions or behaviour. For example, the majority want to work because their work provides a better income and lifestyle for their family. The majority do not commit crimes for many reasons - getting caught will bring shame onto their family, they may lose their job, they may lose their freedom, it may cost them money by way of fines [which honest people pay], they may lose their free time by having to do community work.

Criminals are unable to accept that there is a consequence to their actions. Being caught is the fault of witnesses who have phoned the police. It is the fault of the police who have charged them. It is the fault of the court system. It is the fault of the victim for just being 'in the wrong place' It is the fault of the 85 year old woman who walked out of a supermarket and got bashed and robbed because the "real victim" thought she may have looked at him funny (Johnny Braam was awarded his Mongrel Mob patch for that one).

Criminals, like the now infamous Victoria Stevens of Central Hawkes Bay are convinced that the unemployment/sickness benefit is their right. They regard it as their 'pay'. They cannot understand that the money is sourced from people who work and pay taxes - and if they could comprehend that, they wouldn't give a shit anyway. They understand that it comes from the government. Nobody has the right to question her entitlement to it. This woman cannot understand why she was trespassed from Hastings Court yesterday. In her mind she has a right to see her son and if the victims family get in the way then too damn bad. Anyway it was the victims own fault, if he hadn't interfered while a Mongrel Mobster was exercising his unalienable right to bash the crap out of a woman then he wouldn't have had to have been stabbed. She has convinced herself that she is the victim.

Perhaps in some ways she is a victim. A victim of a tainted thought process perpetuated by the PC world we now inhabit. A victim of idiotic do gooders who feed the victim mentality of the criminally insane - because insane they are.