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Cult or church?


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nitpicker1
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« Reply #25 on: October 30, 2009, 07:32:09 am »

   http://www.3news.co.nz/Destiny-Churchs-inner-workings-revealed-in-secret-video/tabid/303/articleID/127420/cat/772/Default.aspx
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« Reply #26 on: October 30, 2009, 09:53:54 am »

All churches are nothing more than scams. My grandparents who live in America and a very staunch Southern Baptists that vemonously support giving 10% of their earning to the church have just fallen sick to a point where they need full time care. Is there church helping them out? No they ain't. They don't want to know them now they can't contribute. So now my parents are packing up and moving over to America in the next few months to look after them.
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Lovelee
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« Reply #27 on: October 30, 2009, 09:59:33 am »

Ohh heck - thats yuk Crusader!
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Sir Blodsnogger
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« Reply #28 on: October 30, 2009, 10:09:44 am »

Well if we obeyed what God thinks we should do..... we would all look after our parents - and that goes for you and me too you one eyed Canterbury git!
Why should you blame the church for what parents will not usually do.
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Sir Blodsnogger
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« Reply #29 on: October 30, 2009, 10:18:26 am »

Magoo, tokgal, and any other detractors of Mr Tamaki I have a question for you.

Why are you who have done absolutely FA for the needy such as giving them hope ina practical living way so they are raised up to have self confidence. They get jobs, give up alcohol and (Lovelee's) MJ and other  drugs and get a real life.
You are a sorry bunch of people. Can you not give credit where it due?
You have to earn the right to discredit Tamaki. Have you done that - seems to me you have no right whatsoever and you are simple self righteous bastards that need a wake up call.

You are all like that accuser on Mark Sainsbury's tv show. You have bullets for brains.
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Lovelee
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« Reply #30 on: October 30, 2009, 10:21:18 am »

How do you know what they have done in the name of charity?  Many do bits and pieces without asking for accolades from anyone for them.  One doesnt have to be connected to a fucking church to do good.

Tamaki is only feathering HIS nest - hes doing nothing with the 10% for anyone else - they have to do that themselves.
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Magoo
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« Reply #31 on: October 30, 2009, 10:24:21 am »

Night raider.  You are such a funny wee soul and give rise to much laugher here.  I am so pleased they let you out today and obviously medicated to the eyebrows because without your wee insights this board would be so boring.  Is this what God expects of you?   SNAFU. Grin
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« Reply #32 on: October 30, 2009, 10:39:57 am »

All churches are nothing more than scams. My grandparents who live in America and a very staunch Southern Baptists that vemonously support giving 10% of their earning to the church have just fallen sick to a point where they need full time care. Is there church helping them out? No they ain't. They don't want to know them now they can't contribute. So now my parents are packing up and moving over to America in the next few months to look after them.

Not all churches are like that. Unfortunately though the wider community does tar them all with the same brush.

The methodist church in the UK that my in-laws parents belonged to did look after them. When they were no longer able to live in there Council house they shifted into church run pensioner housing where they always has someone on site if they needed help. This was over and above what was covered by the rent and NHS.

Many tend to blame the churches for not providing welfare when the role churches used to have in providing such care has been taken over by the state. That may not be the case in the USA with its private health system and lack of welfare but it is the case in the UK, Australia and NZ.


BTOT

Destany Church does worry me. Like many of the evangelical churches, they are so right wing it is scary but that is far from all.

They are not the only church with members in uniform, the Salvation Army is well known for their uniformed officers and bands. Nor is Desiny the only church view every non member as damned. Nor is Desiny the only church with their own exclusive school system.

They are however starting to get very close to crossing the line into a cult. From what I saw on the video footage last night Brian Tamaki himself has crossed the line. The voice in his ear may be his own ego or belong to that entity usually depicted with horns and an arrow tipped tail.
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« Reply #33 on: October 30, 2009, 10:45:50 am »

According to the dictionary a cult is merely a group of people who are religiously reverent.

Any church is a cult - they determine how their members act etc.

Simply another tugger wanting to dip into others pockets and give nothing in return.
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« Reply #34 on: October 30, 2009, 11:00:32 am »

A scam. 
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Sir Blodsnogger
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« Reply #35 on: October 30, 2009, 11:22:55 am »

Magoo you speak from so much experience I see.
What the hell have you done to have a positive impact on thousands of lives  HUH.
Please answer us.

Otherwise keep your loose lips stuck in a wash peg please.
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« Reply #36 on: October 30, 2009, 11:57:14 am »

Magoo you speak from so much experience I see.
What the hell have you done to have a positive impact on thousands of lives  HUH.
Please answer us.

Otherwise keep your loose lips stuck in a wash peg please.

Night raider, May I point you in the direction of the parable of the widow's mite.

Those who make a big show of helping those less fortunate than themselves are not thinking of those people, they are doing it so others can look and say "look at him/her, she is so generous etc.and it makes him/her feel good.  The one's who give freely of their time and/or money, quietly and expecting no big accolades or rewards are the genuine carers of mankind.

Anyone in this community who does any charitable work does not need to tell you or anyone else about it.
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AnFaolchudubh
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« Reply #37 on: October 30, 2009, 12:12:44 pm »

Magoo you speak from so much experience I see.
What the hell have you done to have a positive impact on thousands of lives  HUH.
Please answer us.

Otherwise keep your loose lips stuck in a wash peg please.

Don't you mean "Please answer you." The rest of us aren't needing an answer. And what do you actually know truthfully about anyone in here as to what they have done to help others? Put your money where your mouth is and provide proof of your claims!

Why are you who have done absolutely FA for the needy such as giving them hope ina practical living way so they are raised up to have self confidence. They get jobs, give up alcohol and (Lovelee's) MJ and other  drugs and get a real life.

I very much doubt that Tamaki and his elk give anything practical, more like they give people false hope!
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R. S. OhAllmurain
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« Reply #38 on: October 30, 2009, 12:15:02 pm »

Night raider
Here are the rules dont forget to obey Bishop who has now has made himself King.
I wonder if his people bow down to him.

Night raider are you a member ?
Did they give you a free black teeshirt ?
Or did they make you buy one for $30 ?

How can this man declare himself king,He is starting to get just a little bit creepy if you ask me

Protocols

In the document comes a section entitled "Protocols towards our spiritual father", which takes 1300 words to describe in jaw-dropping detail how the "spiritual sons" shall behave towards their "spiritual father".

Under "Public Conduct", the sons will in all conversation always speak of Mr Tamaki in a favourable and positive light; and in formal and/or public occasions, they will always address him and his wife, Hannah, first in acknowledgments and addresses at meetings "as a sign of respect to the father of the movement".

If any "son" is honoured either by the church or secularly, he is to mention his "mentors and role models" - Mr and Mrs Tamaki - "because Bishop is one of God's best-known representatives in our country".

Under "Conduct Towards Bishop", the "sons" are told that "Bishop is the tangible expression of God", so they need to understand how to properly approach their man of God "to protect the anointing and not transgress this special relationship".

They are always to be respectful and honourable in Mr Tamaki's presence. "Even though he is very sociable and open - remember who he is!" They must never be "in his face" and must protect him from outsiders who attempt to do that.

They must ensure that Mr Tamaki and his wife are both honoured, cared for and given appropriate respect. "Bishop is a people person. Often it is better we offend others than him."

And since "Bishop carries our vision and our anointing for the future and hope of our families and offspring, we ought to guard, protect and watch out for him and Ps [Pastor] Hannah".

Under "Discernment", the "sons" are told they must "feel Bishop's flow and be attentive to his thoughts and directions", which "gives unity and power to what God is saying and doing through him".

They must endorse what Mr Tamaki endorses, fully support what he promotes and ensure that what he is involved in is supported and successful.

"Whenever Bishop speaks all other talking stops: give him your full attention. Be careful not to cut in on him when he is speaking and ensure others don't either.

"Don't start talking or gesturing to somebody else while Bishop is speaking."

The "sons" must never openly disagree with Mr Tamaki in front of others and must "be careful not to become familiar (which can lead to contempt)" with him "due to his friendliness and openness".

Under "Etiquette", the "sons" are told that when Mr Tamaki and his wife enter a room, they must stand and acknowledge their presence. They may sit only after the Tamakis are seated.

And if they dine with him they wait until he has started eating before they start eating, unless he indicates otherwise.

Vocal

Under "Church Service (in house) Protocols" the men are encouraged to sit as close as possible to the front of the church to be nearer to Mr Tamaki and to be vocal during his preaching, affirming what he has to say with "amen" and "that's right", clapping, shouting and laughing. This sort of participation is said to build "an atmosphere that is conducive to supernatural events".

They are told to bring Bible, pen, paper or laptop to note down Mr Tamaki's sermons which "shows how highly you value the Word of God from Bishop's mouth".

They should come to church anticipating that God will speak through Mr Tamaki and should always be dressed well at all meetings with him. "His dress code is your dress code." They should also look happy and smile and be friendly to all and encourage people.

Under "Supporting Bishop's Function & Ministry", the "sons" are encouraged to find out Mr Tamaki's speaking itinerary and travel to other churches and engagements to support him, because a team of men around their bishop "reflects his importance to them".

They must never tolerate anyone (regardless of who they are) speaking or talking critically of Mr Tamaki and his wife/family or the church. "You are not only to stop them in their tracks but warn them that they criticise you when they criticise Bishop."

They should celebrate Mr Tamaki's special occasions with him with surprises on birthdays, anniversaries and special occasions or achievements.

"Don't wait for others to do it. It is a sign of your love and respect for him: at times give gifts to him and/or Ps Hannah. A gift means many things - love, honour and blessing them: they will feel appreciated."

The men are exhorted to be protective of Mr Tamaki and his family. The protocol says he "will be more criticised, scrutinised and demonised than most others because of who he is and what he carries".

"You will hear all sorts of statements and opinions but you must be prepared to ignore them and consistently hold him in the same high regard no matter what you hear."

Somewhat surprisingly, the protocol says that Mr Tamaki is human and does make mistakes.

However, the sons must "be prepared to defend against any problems arising out of his mistakes.

A loyal man is supposed to 'cushion' the effect of a mistake on Bishop and to protect him. NEVER intentionally expose his weakness."

It says Mr Tamaki may downplay and even discourage "sons" in overtly honouring him, "BUT that should never stop the men from doing what is honourable and what is in their heart to do".

"The bishop's discomfort with honour should never rob the people of the spiritual rewards for such honourable and respectful actions towards him.

It is appropriate, says the protocol, for men to tell others of their love for Mr Tamaki, who is "one of the most well-known representatives of God in our country". The "sons" must reinforce and emphasise what he says and preaches and quote him as often as possible in favourable terms.

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Magoo
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« Reply #39 on: October 30, 2009, 12:19:29 pm »

Maybe Night Raider is one of the 700. Grin
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Anyone in this community who does any charitable work does not need to tell you or anyone else about it.

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« Reply #40 on: October 30, 2009, 12:39:42 pm »

Maybe Night Raider is one of the 700. Grin

Sure seems like it. Grin
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AnFaolchudubh
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« Reply #41 on: October 30, 2009, 12:44:34 pm »

The price of religion at Destiny Church
Published: 11:18AM Friday October 30, 2009

By Eleanor Black, pundit.co.nz

Source: Pundit

It's not often that I read one of Garth George's columns from start to finish, but I was riveted by his account of Brian Tamaki's latest step towards evangelical superstardom.

The man with his own television show, line of t-shirts and hats, and the requisite blonde and glamorous helpmate, has convinced 700 members of his Destiny mega-church -all of them men, naturally-to pledge an oath of loyalty to him.

Apparently Tamaki is not just a hair gel-abuser and motorcycle fancier, he is the "tangible expression of God" and therefore his "sons" must never "get in his face".

"Even though he is very sociable and open-remember who he is!" says a document called Protocols and Requirements Between Spiritual Father & His Spiritual Sons, which the wily George obtained after Destiny's Labour Weekend conference in Auckland.

"Above all, we stand here today in the presence of God to enter into this sacred covenant with our man of God, Bishop Brian Tamaki," says Protocols and Requirements. The "sons" must "feel Bishop's flow and be attentive to his thoughts and directions", which "gives unity and power to what God is saying and doing through him".

Sons are to wear covenant rings on their right hands to remind them of the commitment they've made to Tamaki, which is reminiscent of the chastity rings Tamaki convinced young members of his flock to wear a few years ago, and just as creepy.

At first glance this all seems like nonsense. Tamaki has always had a theatrical flair and healthy ego. He is very much reminiscent of shamed American televangical preacher Jim Bakker who, with his chipmunk-cheeked wife Tammy Faye, preached prosperity gospel in the 80s and set up his own now defunct theme park, Heritage USA, in Ohio, a sort of far-right Disneyland with a water park, conference centre and luxury hotel. Bakker got into difficulty when he over-promised theme-park privileges to church members who paid exorbitant fees for the use of hotel suites. Before that there was widespread concern with his practice of asking viewers of his Praise the Lord television show to send him money, a glitzy form of panhandling. Oh, and then there was the business with Jessica Hahn, a church secretary with whom he dallied.

Bakker wrote a book, I Was Wrong, in 1996, now available on Ebay for $1. Tamaki has also written a book, More Than Meets the Eye, sold on the Destiny website for $30. It is advertised with this breathless pronouncement: "Never before have the forces of religious, political and social activism converged more powerfully than in the life of Brian Tamaki."

Advertisement
 I interviewed Brian Tamaki and his wife Hannah for the Herald five years ago, when their churches were spreading round the North Island like an unholy rash and Tamaki was trying to extend his influence to the political sphere with the establishment of a Destiny political party. I went to their Mt Wellington headquarters with the memory of various offensive Destiny Party pronouncements on male-female relationships and homosexuality fresh in my mind.

I found to my surprise that I rather liked the fragrant Brian and Hannah, despite their problematic beliefs and their blindingly white teeth, big hair, and love of leather clothing. They struck me as charming, confident and in love. They also struck me as folks with their eye on the main opportunity. They were undoubtedly flourishing as their church flourished. I have never known another minister (and it so happens I know a number of ministers fairly well) to enjoy as much personal wealth and self-satisfaction. There was something off about Destiny and I left their complex feeling unsettled. I kept abreast of their comings and goings as they hit the headlines for one absurd reason after another but my unease dissipated as the clownishness intensified.

And then Brian Tamaki faded from public view. His political party achieved nothing except to entertain a pack of gallery reporters who didn't treat Destiny with any more gravitas than they would apply to the McGillicuddy Serious Party or those yogic flyers. I had forgotten all about the charismatic preacher until I saw a story about the sale of his luxurious Maraetai Beach home. And the mention of last year's Destiny Labour Weekend conference at which there was, reportedly, talk of establishing a Destiny walled city in South Auckland, a claim the church has denied. Back in 2006 Tamaki was quoted in Rotorua's Daily Post as saying the church wanted to create a "city within a city".

And now this.

My unease is back and a quick tour of the Destiny website has just made me more uncomfortable. Reading one of the self-proclaimed Bishop's messages costs $4.99. You may buy a notebook to record your sermon notes for $15, one emblazoned with a picture of Hannah and a heart pattern for the ladies and one with a picture of Brian next to the word
"Gladiators" for the guys. There is a special page for donations with this message: "If you will be faithful with what you have right now there is no limit to what God can do with your life". Sounds like the faithful are being promised good things if they donate to the church, which sounds like a bad idea to me.

I don't know if I agree with Garth George's charge that Destiny is transforming itself into a cult but certainly when a church is all about glorifying its human leader and not its God there is something afoot. And if it costs money to share a church's message, well that's fishy too. I have a feeling we are about to see a whole lot more of Brian and Hannah.

 
Source: Close Up
Brian Tamaki

WATCH the video (5:56)

http://tvnz.co.nz/national-news/price-religion-destiny-church-3102501
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R. S. OhAllmurain
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« Reply #42 on: October 30, 2009, 01:16:23 pm »

Well if we obeyed what God thinks we should do..... we would all look after our parents - and that goes for you and me too you one eyed Canterbury git!
Why should you blame the church for what parents will not usually do.

I didn't realise name calling was a Christain Trait. Perhaps you only talk the talk but don't walk the walk. Thats alright, because this world is filled with people like you, phoneys.

If my parents started to obey an imaginary friend, I would have no choice but to declare them mentally insane and put them under the menal health act.

I blame the church because all my Grandparents life they have been brainwashed into gifting 10% of their earnings to the church. If they had have put that money away for savings instead of gifting it, they could afford healthcare and my parents wouldn't have to sell their house at an incredible loss to go over and do something that members of the church could do.
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« Reply #43 on: October 30, 2009, 01:21:10 pm »

Is Destiny destined to rule?
One News/Otober 3, 2004

In four years Destiny church will rule New Zealand, according to its charismatic founder pastor Brian Tamaki.

Tamaki is deadly serious about that date, even though the Destiny political party is rating 0.5% in the latest political poll.

But some former members of Destiny church have told TVNZ's Sunday programme they have a different view of Tamaki.

They believe he has turned the church into a cult expert at extracting cash, more often than not from the people who can least afford to pay.

Destiny church made its presence known when it staged its 'enough is enough' march to protest the Civil Union Bill.

Around 5,000 people, most dressed in black, took to the streets to support Tamaki's call to "uphold and protect marriage and the family".

They are people who take the bible literally; they believe God created the earth in six days, that abortion is a sin and homosexual sex an abomination.

"As far as I can tell it's a cult," says the reverend Doctor Phillip Culbertson, a lecturer in theology at Auckland University.

"It certainly fits the classic definitions of a cult."

Culbertson points as evidence to the strong emphasis Destiny church puts on obligation, and the presence of a senior pastor "who tells people how to think....who understands himself as a particular agent or voice of God in some special chosen way".

Tamaki says if Destiny church is a cult then 90% of the churches in New Zealand are cults.

"God does choose men," says Tamaki. "He puts an authority on their lives whereby he uses them in a special way."

Tamaki told his followers that New Zealand's government will soon be upon the shoulders of Jesus Christ.

"It's a government that shall govern this nation that is not like the governments of this world. It's not a dictatorship, it's not a democracy, it's a theocracy."

Cultwatch director Mark Vrankovich says Destiny church is what he would classify as an emerging mind control cult.

Cultwatch members come from a variety of Christian churches and they're worried about Tamaki. Vrankovich says Destiny members talk about Tamaki a lot more than they do Jesus Christ.

There are no crosses inside the Destiny church, just pictures of the Tamaki family and other pastors.

Last year Tamaki told his followers: "I predict in the next five years, by the time we hit our 10th anniversary - and I don't say this lightly - that we will be ruling the nation."

On that same night Tamaki joined forces with Bishop Eddie L Long, senior pastor of the New Birth Missionary Baptist Church in Atlanta, USA.

Tamaki said the self-appointed bishop was his spiritual father.

Long blessed Destiny's vision that it will be ruling New Zealand before its 10th anniversary.

"He made a declaration that in five years you shall be ruling and reigning in this nation," Long told the Destiny Church.

"That means you control the wealth, that means you control the riches, that means you control the politics, that means you control the social order, that means that you are in charge."

Tamaki says his prediction is no slip of the tongue but a prophetic utterance.

Destiny's vision is progressing. In just six years the church's flock has grown to more than 7,000.

Destiny has planted or taken over churches throughout New Zealand and now has 20 outlets.

Each church has its own trust board, but Brian and Hannah Tamaki have an absolute veto over any decision those boards, which Tamaki describes as cumbersome, make.

Tamaki says his accountability is clear with God, his wife, his close leaders and with the Destiny International board.

"At the end of the day somebody has got to say this is the way, let's go," says Tamaki.

The church is reaching out through Destiny Television in New Zealand, the United States and on the internet.

Destiny's headquarters is in a warehouse in South Auckland where more than 1,000 people turn up to church on Sunday mornings.

Members are expected to give at least 10% of their total income to the church, and those who don't are considered to be defrauding God and could be cursed.

Former Destiny member Kerry Petera was tithing 10% of her Domestic Purposes Benefit, which meant $28 a week, until she realised her boys and baby were going without.

"You get to the end of the week and there's not enough money to, you know, just top up on bread and milk and stuff like that," says Petera.

Tamaki admits some people find tithing hard, but says he's not taking from the poor.

He says most people come to the church financially broken and already in a mess and paying a tithe "is the first step in trying to get their financial work in order".

Tamaki says those who give to the church will be blessed by God, but Petera says it was just too tough.

She believes they wouldn't have allowed her to go to the church if she didn't pay up.

"Every Sunday someone would give a message about tithing and the importance of giving the 10%."

The millions tithed mostly goes into developing the church and paying for its pastors.

When asked by Sunday how much money he makes, Tamaki says enough to live and provide for his family.

He says he tithes 50% of his income but that "the bible doesn't say you have to be poor".

The Cultwatch people say they have spoken to at least 50 disillusioned former Destiny members, including Sabrina Whare, the daughter of a former Destiny pastor.

"They talk about family values but yet it's so easy for them to turn around and hurt families and abandon them and brand them like they did," says Sabrina.

Her family once belonged to the Tamaki's church in Rotorua. They went to Brisbane when her father Tom was appointed pastor at Destiny's new church there, but the Whares left after falling out with the Tamakis.

"(My father) was devastated because of the fact that he had given to this church for 10 years," says Sabrina.

She believes Destiny's wish is to take over New Zealand and for Tamaki to be sitting in Prime Minister Helen Clark's seat.

But Tamaki says he doesn't want to be a politician.

"I have a higher calling than a politician, I am a man of God."


To see more documents/articles regarding this group/organization/subject click here.

http://www.rickross.com/groups/destiny_churches.html
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Sir Blodsnogger
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« Reply #44 on: October 30, 2009, 01:25:41 pm »

Crusader you would not recognise achurch if it jumed up and fell on you. You are all hot air and have NEVER given the God of the Bible a chance. You look at weak mankind whgo is fraught with faults and use that as excuse to turn your back on God. Thats a wobbly willy attitude and you should be ashamed of ourself.

My question stands -
What thel have you done to have a positive impact on thousands of lives as destiny church obviously has?     HUH.
Please answer us.

Otherwise keep your loose lips stuck in a wash peg please.
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« Reply #45 on: October 30, 2009, 01:35:51 pm »

Blod -- this is typical of a churchie - I bet you stand up and tell everyone what money you have given to charities and all the good deeds you do through the day.  You looking for a medal?

No one has to tell u what they do to make a positive impact for anyone!

In fact its irrelevant - unless you are alluding to the positive good the followers of Tamaki do for his pocket .. cos theres sure as hell no one else benefitting from it!
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« Reply #46 on: October 30, 2009, 01:48:03 pm »

id like to know what  desinty has done to help thousands of people. "saving souls" or any other such bullshit  does not qualify.
i want to know  what they have done to  help people that doesnt  benifit the  church.  as in  contributed in aid or assistance  the equivilent value it Demands from its  members.
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Sir Blodsnogger
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« Reply #47 on: October 30, 2009, 01:49:34 pm »

you are a picky blinkered ass
Have you not bothered to follow what theyhave doen. EVEN THE NEWS ADVERTISED IT.
wAKE UP YOU SIlLY OLD DART
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« Reply #48 on: October 30, 2009, 01:50:42 pm »

LOL tell us!
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« Reply #49 on: October 30, 2009, 01:54:36 pm »

Yu know what they have done lovelee I am not here to repeat what is the public domain for the sake of dopes trying to get a  rise out me.
YOU are the chief among us. The chief taker of the bait.  Grin
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