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New flag to be based on plastic plates?

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Author Topic: New flag to be based on plastic plates?  (Read 920 times)
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reality
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« Reply #25 on: December 19, 2015, 04:20:35 pm »

ali......."To even consider a flag change the same year as the Gallipoli centennial is a disgrace to those Kiwis who served their country under OUR flag"

...well..see..I dont see it that way at all....the people who fight for this country are fighting for our freedom do do as we wish as a country...which includes having what flag we want...I think what they are fighting for is our freedom and democratic values...not cotton and paint that depicts our colonisation ..nah that argument is about people clutching at emotive straws

Ali.."You are entitled to make comments and spout your opinion, just as I am entitled to spout mine. You seem to forget that sometimes eality."

...hey...dont for a second think that I dont think you are entitled to express your opinion...of course you are..please give the example that makes implies that I think you should not....just because I debate a point doesn't mean I am right...like you..its just my point of view and I will defend it...thats what debating is I guess..

..if I dont think you should express your point of view I would insult you..but you will notice that is not usually in my nature unless somebody abuses me first  Roll Eyes...i will return fire if fired upon Wink
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Crusader
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« Reply #26 on: December 19, 2015, 04:57:26 pm »

The flag change referendum is purely a smokescreen to rush through the TPPA. Why don't we spent $26 million on a worthwhile referendum such as whether we should sign the TPPA?

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reality
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« Reply #27 on: December 19, 2015, 05:19:18 pm »

man ..there's alot of "glass half full" attitude around here..I'm getting alot of negative vibes....

..even that great socialist matriarch Helen Clark knows we have to be in...and she wasn't scared to make it quite obvious what she thought..but Andrew Little....no..he thought there may be a few votes in being obscure ....what was his preferred pm poll the other day...about 16% Sad..and John Key's....about 63%....gee...not much gap there Shocked...that tells me what the majority of kiwi's are thinking...and unless something goes tragically wrong for National or John Key.....they already have an odds on chance at the next election....bearing in mind the old cliche about a week being along time in politics Wink

..but at present..all the loony leftie parties combined are struggling to match the conservative coalition..

..kiwis generally are to pragmatic and astute...they understand the downfalls of the socialist ideals Wink..the lead upm to the referendum is going to be very interesting..

..anybody confident enough to make a prediction??
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Crusader
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« Reply #28 on: December 19, 2015, 05:40:22 pm »

man ..there's alot of "glass half full" attitude around here..I'm getting alot of negative vibes....


Take a hint then and make like a tree and leave!
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Alicat
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« Reply #29 on: December 19, 2015, 05:48:47 pm »

My attitude, and the attitude of a number of other Members here is realistic - none of the rose tinted half full glasses that you Reality would have us believe. We are just demonstrating that we are less likely to be sucked in than you.
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reality
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« Reply #30 on: December 19, 2015, 05:49:34 pm »

haha...yeah  please dont address the issues...if you cant Wink...dont worry...I appreciate the difficulty Wink
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reality
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« Reply #31 on: December 19, 2015, 05:56:00 pm »

ali...."My attitude, and the attitude of a number of other Members here is realistic - none of the rose tinted half full glasses that you Reality would have us believe. We are just demonstrating that we are less likely to be sucked in than you."

...no problems whatsoever...thats the great thing about living in a free country..you believe what you like..and people cant change that..unless of course they persuade you though communication...sorry...I have optimistic tendencies...just that life is so short, certainly to short to not put in 100% effort and not wasting time Tongue
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« Reply #32 on: December 19, 2015, 08:08:03 pm »

I am in favour of changing the flag - a view I have held since childhood simply because the current flag is too similar to the Australian flag. This referendum is the first time I have seen designs of flags that could be realistically considered as an alternative.

That said I have had concerns with the way the finial choices were chosen and the way the double referendum is run.
1. I don't know how the finial choices were arrived at and question reasoning choosing of those that made the finial 4, this is even though two bore a close resemblance to the design I liked the most. The addition of a 5th choice on the back of a social media campaign was a worrying departure from the stated process, making the chosen process even more questionable.

2. The order the in which the two referendum are being held, while making sure that the most popular of the finial choices goes up against the current flag also makes the assumption that we will change the flag rather than allowing us to decide to change the flag then choose what the new flag will be.

3.  The preferential voting method is not one that many are comfortable with. Again I understand the reasoning behind using this method but the fact remains that many still confused by the ranking process rather than picking one choice as we are used to. This method alone will have counted for a number of invalid voting papers. How many we will never know because such votes can not be differentiated conclusively from deliberately spoiled votes. Sp2, with a disability and voting for the first time did struggle with the preferential voting process - her vote was valid and her own decision in the end but only because Sp1 and I explained every step of the process to her one step at a time while Sp2 had a pen and voting paper in her hand.

4.  If there was ever a time when children should have had the right to vote this was it. Changing the flag is something our children will have to live with longer than we will and courtesy of the school system they are also better informed of the choices than many adults. Sp3 had some very well reasoned arguments for and against and certainly understood the process better than Sp2 and his grandparents but unlike 18 year old Sp2 and his grandparents he, at 15 years old didn't have the right to vote.

5. 
The flag change referendum is purely a smokescreen to rush through the TPPA. Why don't we spent $26 million on a worthwhile referendum such as whether we should sign the TPPA?




I agree. And unfortunately the media have be distracted by the flag debate.

Will I be voting for change in the next referendum? - probably. The winning design although not perfect is in my opinion, better than the current flag.
As at least a 4th generation New Zealander (6th if you follow a maternal line on my paternal side) I think the silver fern is a better representation of this country than the Union Jack.
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Kiwithrottlejockey
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« Reply #33 on: December 19, 2015, 08:17:25 pm »


There is one person who has been posting in this thread (and most other threads on the messageboard) who is totally lacking any sense of reality.

Wanna guess (or deduce, based on evidence) who that person is?
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Crusader
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« Reply #34 on: December 19, 2015, 08:41:12 pm »

I too think it is time for a new flag. The union jack no longer defines us and should be removed from the flag.

I also detest the RSA for making comments about those who fought for the flag. What a load of bollocks. I have deployed five times in service of this country and none of those times was for a piece of fabric.

I just hate the fact that this is being used as a smokescreen for the TPPA.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2015, 05:29:14 am by Crusader » Report Spam   Logged
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« Reply #35 on: December 20, 2015, 03:00:25 am »


Re reply #32

I have friends across the ditch who tell me the Aussies were beginning the process of changing theirs..

seems to me Our Leader likes to be first in everything
   
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reality
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« Reply #36 on: December 20, 2015, 04:38:54 am »

ss..."..too similar to the Australian flag..."

...I agree..that is my biggest problem with it....if I had a dollar for everytime I have been somewhere overseas when people have wrongly assumed that our flag is the Oz flag...it's frustrating.....the potential new flag says ...NEW ZEALAND...just like there is no way you can mistake the Canadian flag Tongue
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« Reply #37 on: December 20, 2015, 10:31:52 am »

ss..."..too similar to the Australian flag..."


If you learn to count to “five” (go on....it isn't too difficult....it's only one step on from “four”), then you can count the stars and tell the difference between the two flags. Also note the difference in colour of the stars.

For intelligent people, it is easy to determine which is the Aussie flag and which is the New Zealand flag.
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Crusader
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« Reply #38 on: December 20, 2015, 02:45:14 pm »

Whilst deployed overseas, we had to wear a kiwi patch rather than the NZ flag as the 'unintelligent' (according to KTJ) people we were up against couldn't tell the difference between us and the Aussies. Given the Aussies treated the locals like shit and we didn't, we were less likely to come under attack if we made sure we couldn't be mistaken for an Aussie.
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« Reply #39 on: December 20, 2015, 03:44:24 pm »

ss..."..too similar to the Australian flag..."


If you learn to count to “five” (go on....it isn't too difficult....it's only one step on from “four”), then you can count the stars and tell the difference between the two flags. Also note the difference in colour of the stars.

For intelligent people, it is easy to determine which is the Aussie flag and which is the New Zealand flag.


Oh, we can tell the difference. It is the people in other places that have trouble.

That is as long as the wind is blowing.

If there is no wind nobody can tell the difference cos' both flags are dark blue and unionjacked.
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« Reply #40 on: December 20, 2015, 09:22:51 pm »

Whilst deployed overseas, we had to wear a kiwi patch rather than the NZ flag as the 'unintelligent' (according to KTJ) people we were up against couldn't tell the difference between us and the Aussies. Given the Aussies treated the locals like shit and we didn't, we were less likely to come under attack if we made sure we couldn't be mistaken for an Aussie.


Which is why a flag with a KIWI  on it would be my preference if we do need a change.


   
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« Reply #41 on: December 20, 2015, 10:23:11 pm »

A kiwi on the flag would definitely identify the New Zealand male as both of them live in the dark, eat roots shoots and leaves.
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« Reply #42 on: December 20, 2015, 10:29:53 pm »


Everything is all arse-about-face.

We should be voting on the future of the monarchy as it pertains to New Zealand before worrying about the flag.

Then....if we decide to ditch the monarchy and become a republic with a president, that is when the union jack on our flag becomes redundant necessitating a new flag.

John Key cannot even organise a piss-up in a brewery properly.

Or perhaps he wishes to continue to suck up to the Windsors, while replacing our flag with a corporate image?
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Alicat
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« Reply #43 on: December 21, 2015, 02:32:31 pm »

A kiwi on the flag would definitely identify the New Zealand male as both of them live in the dark, eat roots shoots and leaves.



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« Reply #44 on: December 21, 2015, 03:10:51 pm »

A kiwi on the flag would definitely identify the New Zealand male as both of them live in the dark, eat roots shoots and leaves.





Well here we are,  get this one:

http://shop.flagmakers.co.nz/products/fighting-kiwi-flag





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reality
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« Reply #45 on: December 21, 2015, 03:51:08 pm »

nah...I am already flying what may become our new flag...only cost $30 Tongue
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« Reply #46 on: December 21, 2015, 04:17:54 pm »

A kiwi on the flag would definitely identify the New Zealand male as both of them live in the dark, eat roots shoots and leaves.


Kiwi are not vegetarian. They mainly eat grubs and earthworms.


...or does your sentence leave out a couple of commas and put an have an extra s on the words root and shoot?
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reality
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« Reply #47 on: January 16, 2016, 08:49:21 pm »

yes...change it.. our anthem lies to us..god will not defend NZ...only our defence force and that of our allies will...not god Embarrassed
...to believe that god will defend us is to be in denial and childish...departed from reality Wink

Today's talking point: Time to change the anthem?

Do you sing the NZ national anthem loud and proud or are you ready for a new song?

It's a proud and patriotic moment when a stadium stands to sing New Zealand's anthem but some say our national song needs a spruce up.

England is considering ditching God Save the Queen as its national anthem and some think God Defend New Zealand could also do with a makeover.

We're already debating changing the flag and last year Labour leader Andrew Little said the anthem was a "dirge", saying many Kiwis preferred the Australian anthem.


The Prime Minister disagreed but said if we were to change the anthem, we would need to hold a referendum, same as the flag.

Stuff
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reality
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« Reply #48 on: January 26, 2016, 05:18:47 pm »

....hope so Grin

You may not like it, but the New Zealand flag will change  stuff nation  video

Where do you stand with the NZ flag?
stuff.co.nz
We asked Kiwis to show us their flag pride. Where does yours lie?

OPINION: I want to declare a few things straight off the bat. Firstly, I am very pro change. Secondly, I do like the proposed new flag. Lastly, for those that are politically-minded, I am very much left of centre in my views.

Now, here's the thing, the flag WILL change, and before all the keep-the-flag advocates get upset and quote polls at me, I do have a very sound argument to support this view. You may not like it, but the flag will change.

Let's first of all look at some simple facts.

The political facts are simple. The three largest parties currently in parliament - National, Labour and the Greens - all have a party policy to change the flag. If Labour had won the last election this would still be happening. So if we sweep past the can't-agree-with-each-other rhetoric, the conclusion is that the political will is there for change, from both sides of centre, and history tells us that will eventually lead to change.

Show your New Zealand flag pride
Share your stories, photos and videos.
Another fact is that prior to this debate there was no real public push for change, no active lobby group, no section of society protesting, challenging or campaigning. There may have been a section of New Zealand that wanted change, but it was generally a very silent section.

However, since the debate started lobby groups have sprung up, some very enthusiastic and very vocal, with strong membership. A public campaign for change has started, and it is significant. It may still be a vocal minority, but it isn't a small minority and it is very active. History suggests that these types of groups make change, especially if they have political support, which this cause has by the bucket load.

Now that the lobbyists for change have an alternative, they also have a very powerful tool, which can be used to enact change.

Jeff and Nicole Lowe support the Silver Fern flag "to show that New Zealand is a truly independent country looking towards the future".
SUPPLIED
Jeff and Nicole Lowe support the Silver Fern flag "to show that New Zealand is a truly independent country looking towards the future".

I am sure many in the Keep Our Flag camp are hoping that the vote will happen, they will win and the whole idea of a flag change will just fade away. This is very naive, and very, very unlikely.

The newly-founded change the flag lobby groups will treat any loss at the referendum as a mere setback, they won't see it as the end of the journey. Especially if the vote is close - anything above a third of the vote will be considered significant.

Let's crunch some numbers: 3.25 million people are registered to vote. The highest turnout for a referendum in New Zealand has been 80 per cent. The first flag referendum was about 50 per cent. So if we do the maths with a top turn out we can expect 2.6 million votes. With a low turnout we can expect 1.63 million.

If a third of the vote is for change then we could have between 540,000 to 870,000 people wanting change. That's not a small minority. The thing is the vote is quite possibly going to be closer, and a high turnout, coupled with a 40 per cent vote for change, means over 1 million people could easily vote for the new flag. If that happens the pro-change lobby groups will be very inspired, and energised.

Ad Feedback

The campaign for change will not end with referendum if the vote to change is rejected. It will mark a new beginning. The alternative flag will not go away. It will be everywhere, on people's personal flag poles, at sports events, on t-shirts, etc. It will be everywhere. It will become a norm.

Many people will start to assume it is already our flag. Its use may even overtake the old flag in many situations. It would have become a part of our national psyche and culture. Eventually the law will have to catch up.

In 1977 God Defend New Zealand legally became our national anthem. This surprised many New Zealanders who had assumed for years it was our official anthem, because we had been singing it for years, and it even was played at the 1975 Olympics. The flag change could progress in exactly the same way.

There are a couple of other really important considerations. One is the current factions. There are four distinct groups at the moment, and two groups are very capable of swaying. There is the vote-for-the-alternative faction, there is the keep-the-current-flag faction, there is the sizeable (if the chat rooms and discussion groups are a guide) group who are pro-change but just don't like the current alternative, and there is the "I don't like the cost" and "I don't like John Key" faction.

The last three groups are all going to vote to keep the flag. The last group could easily flip if it becomes a Labour initiative, and the process is cheaper. The second-to-last group is interesting, for various reasons many people in this group strongly dislike the current flag, and this dislike, may finally (given time) guide them to vote for the alternative, because it is the better of the two options.

Nothing scientific here, and I may be wrong, but my sense is that the people who actually like or love our current flag are not the majority. Polls show how people will vote, not why. A majority poll result showing that people want to keep the current flag does not indicate love for the flag, as many who hate the current flag will still vote for it.

So how will it play out? Well this is my prediction: If the vote in this referendum is to keep our current flag, then the campaign for change will dig itself in. The public interest in change will continue to grow, the flag will become more common. My guess is, that by the general election 2020, New Zealand will be ready to vote on this option again, and it will be included in the general election process, therefore negating the high mail-out cost associated with this referendum.

The Key haters, the cost-of-the-exercise haters and the hate-the-current-flag-but-not-keen-on-the-alternative groups will jump camps. And so in 2020, it will romp in, with a huge majority.

That's if it doesn't change in the upcoming vote, which is still a possibility.

The simple fact is, a noise for change has started, and it won't shut up until the change happens, and this upcoming referendum won't stop the change campaign, even if change is voted down.

The flag is going to change.

Where do you stand on the flag debate? We're producing a video of how New Zealanders feel on this issue. Submit your photo or video by hitting the green button or emailing stuffnation@stuff.co.nz

 - Stuff.co.nz
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Alicat
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« Reply #49 on: January 26, 2016, 06:11:20 pm »

There goes another one ... I'm sure medication is available

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