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"Catholic Church 'appalled' "...something good must have happened


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reality
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« on: August 27, 2015, 07:45:58 pm »


...slowly but surely...religion is losing its power to tell me how i should live my life Grin Tongue

Catholic Church 'appalled' at changes to Easter trading
 
JASON DORDAY/stuff.co.nz
Should businesses be allowed to open on Easter Sunday? We hit the streets to find out.

The Catholic social justice agency is "appalled" by the Government's proposed changes to Easter Sunday trading restrictions.

On Monday, the Government announced it is changing "arbitrary" national Easter Sunday trading restrictions.

Currently, public holidays are observed on Good Friday and Easter Monday, and Sunday is a restricted trading day. Some tourist towns, such as Queenstown and Taupo, are exempt from the heavy restrictions on trading.

Immigration Minister Michael Woodhouse comments on changes to Easter Sunday trading for businesses
FAIRFAXNZ
Immigration Minister Michael Woodhouse comments on changes to Easter Sunday trading for businesses

Under new legislation, the decision to allow shops and garden centres to stay open will be handed to councils.

Caritas Aotearoa New Zealand said the decision to liberalise Easter trading hours to local councils will have negative implications for families and communities.

Director Julianne Hickey said the agency was "surprised and appalled" by the proposed legislation.

"There are a range of activities that take place at Easter because most New Zealand workers are guaranteed time off work - including church activities, but also sports tournaments, school reunions, hui, unveilings, and other marae gatherings," she said.

"We have a very long track record of submitting and commenting on proposed changes to Easter trading hours. However, there has been no consultation with churches or unions on this proposed legislation."

Statistics from the 2013 census show almost 500,000 Kiwis identify with the Catholic religion, and more than 1.8 million with a Christian religion.

Following Monday's announcement, Broadcasting Minister Amy Adams on Thursday said she wanted to make the rules governing traditional and new media more consistent.

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Television stations are prevented by the Broadcasting Act from carrying advertisements between 6am and noon on Sunday, and on Christmas Day, Good Friday, Easter Sunday and Anzac Day morning, while online media are not.

The public holiday advertising bans also apply to radio stations.

A discussion paper on content regulation released by Adams said the bans could be scrapped entirely, or only during major sporting events.

Caritas declined to comment on the issue of advertising.

 - Stuff
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« Reply #1 on: August 27, 2015, 07:52:25 pm »

What short memories some people have. It was only when the trading laws were changed last time that garden centres were not allowed to open on Easter Sunday.

Easter Sunday isn't even a public holiday - Easter Monday is.

The flip side of this is do we really want or need to have shops open everyday? Even in parts of Auckland shops don't open on any Sunday.
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« Reply #2 on: August 27, 2015, 08:00:35 pm »

ss...."do we really want or need to have shops open everyday"


...uhm....if  some people want to open...and others want to buy...why not...what business is it of a religion to tell other people what they should be doing...the catholics need only pay attention to the fairy tales which rule their own lives Roll Eyes
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« Reply #3 on: August 27, 2015, 08:57:23 pm »


People of today (such as reality) must be really disorganised, inadequate people if they cannot exist without 7-days-a-week shopping.

When I was young, shops only opened Monday to Friday and we managed perfectly well.

It meant that most people actually had all weekend off instead of having employers putting pressure on them to work.

It was great for family activities.

People Maggots like reality live in a “fuck-you world of selfishness & greed!”

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« Reply #4 on: August 28, 2015, 07:58:46 am »

kj..........."When I was young..."


..all due respect...that was a fucking long time ago....please forgive the rest of the world for moving on Tongue


...you go to church..I will go and buy something.....if I wish.....or wont if I dont wish.....aint the freedom to choose a great thing Tongue

...thankyou democracy Wink
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« Reply #5 on: August 28, 2015, 06:28:38 pm »


from THE DURANGO HERALD....

The train gang

Butch and the boys robbed a few railroads.

By ANDREW GULLIFORD | 10:38AM - Thursday, September 13, 2012

This photograph of Butch Cassidy was taken at the Wyoming State Penitentiary, where he served two years for stealing a $5 horse. Butch was born Robert Leroy Parker in a small Mormon community in Beaver, Utah. He learned his trade from the horse and cattle rustler Mike Cassidy. Because Robert had been a butcher in Rock Springs, Wyoming, he earned the nickname Butch Cassidy. — Photograph: Courtesy of Andrew Gulliford.
This photograph of Butch Cassidy was taken at the Wyoming State Penitentiary, where he served two
years for stealing a $5 horse. Butch was born Robert Leroy Parker in a small Mormon community in
Beaver, Utah. He learned his trade from the horse and cattle rustler Mike Cassidy. Because Robert
had been a butcher in Rock Springs, Wyoming, he earned the nickname Butch Cassidy.
 — Photograph: Courtesy of Andrew Gulliford.


THE OUTLAW TRAIL…

For stealing a $5 horse, Butch Cassidy spent two years in the Wyoming State Prison. He learned his lesson, though. He never got caught stealing horses again. Instead he turned to robbing trains. Butch figured they'd pay better. He was right.

A square-jawed, stocky, tow-headed cowboy with gray eyes and a winning smile, Butch had a way with women. When he had the money, he spent lavishly and he was known in every whorehouse from Miles City, Montana, to Fort Worth, Texas. Paperback dollars, bank certificates, and silver and gold coins slipped through his grasp, yet Butch and the Wild Bunch never robbed railroad passengers. He was quick with a gun, but he never killed anyone, at least not in the United States, and just as railroads began to reach their pinnacle of power across the American West in the 1890s and early 1900s, Butch developed a fondness for railway express cars. And he knew how to open safes. With dynamite.

As a Western historian I've spent years on the trail of Butch and the boys. I've tracked him down in Brown's Park, Colorado, followed him to Hole in the Wall in Wyoming, and I'm learning his haunts in the Robbers Roost area of Utah. I've been on the Outlaw Trail with Butch and he inspired many stories. Some of them are even true.

Yes, he raced horses in McElmo Canyon and yes, he robbed the bank in Telluride. Detective Charles Siringo rode through Durango in search of Butch, but the wily outlaw was already far to the south on the WS Ranch near Alma, New Mexico. There are many tales to tell of Butch, but let's focus on one of his favorite topics — robbing trains.

Cassidy would become a wanted man in four states, and his loose band of outlaws, nicknamed the Wild Bunch, terrified bank presidents and railroad executives. Pinkerton detectives trailed Butch and came close to catching him, but they were always a step too late at the livery stable, the scene of the crime, his campsite or a bordello.

Butch knew how to dodge sheriffs and lose posses, but he never learned to save his ill-gotten gains. He either gambled it away, or shared it with friends, or spent it on lawyers both for himself and his compadres. And when he was out of money, why, Butch and the boys knew just what to do. They'd rob another train.


This famous group photo of the Wild Bunch, taken near a red-light district called Hell's Half Acre, features the Sundance Kid on bottom left and Butch Cassidy on bottom right. They had at least 50 images printed up in the John Swartz Photography Studio in Fort Worth and even had the cheek to mail one back to Winnemucca, Nevada, to the president of the bank they had robbed the month before. — Photograph: Courtesy of Union Pacific Railroad Museum Collection.
This famous group photo of the Wild Bunch, taken near a red-light district called Hell's Half Acre, features the Sundance Kid on bottom left
and Butch Cassidy on bottom right. They had at least 50 images printed up in the John Swartz Photography Studio in Fort Worth and even
had the cheek to mail one back to Winnemucca, Nevada, to the president of the bank they had robbed the month before.
 — Photograph: Courtesy of Union Pacific Railroad Museum Collection.


Yes, on occasion Butch and the boys used a little too much dynamite. In trying to blow this express car safe, they destroyed the entire railcar. To keep passengers from getting injured Butch Cassidy always separated the express car from the other passenger cars. — Photograph: Courtesy of Union Pacific Railroad Museum Collection.
Yes, on occasion Butch and the boys used a little too much dynamite. In trying to blow this express car safe, they destroyed the entire railcar.
To keep passengers from getting injured Butch Cassidy always separated the express car from the other passenger cars.
 — Photograph: Courtesy of Union Pacific Railroad Museum Collection.


In between robberies Butch and the gang drifted across the West working at ranches. They never robbed from their employers, and the big cattlemen were astonished that when Butch hired on as a ranch hand, all theft of cattle ceased. Consequently, he was often promoted to ranch manager.

He was cool and calculating with guns — he preferred a Colt .45 and a Winchester .44-40 Saddle Ring carbine rifle, but he rarely fired them during a heist. “They were all gentlemanly,” said trainmen after being robbed by the Wild Bunch. Railroad president E.H. Harriman was not amused. He invented a special horse or posse car complete with armed marshals, deputies, weapons and fast horses.

Butch carefully planned each robbery. He would spend weeks getting to know the landscape, deciding where to leave extra horses, and deliberating on the best place to separate the railroad engine from the express car, which usually carried two safes. The Wild Bunch preferred to rob trains at night or just before dawn, with one outlaw on the train as a paying passenger who would crawl over the tender and sneak up on the engineer.

Butch started robbing trains because his earlier career of stealing horses and busting banks had become uncomfortable. Too many posses too close on his trail. As railroad owners devised steel express cars and posses on wheels, it looked like Butch's train-robbing days were over.

Robbing trains had gotten out of hand. Between 1890 and 1899 thieves successfully plotted 261 train robberies resulting in 86 injuries and 88 deaths. Most of the robberies had occurred in the West. What did the trainmen think? They were getting used to robberies and to Butch. Even the Pinkerton Detective Agency stated that Butch was “amiable and agreeable.” Though occasionally a railroad engineer might be whacked on the head by an outlaw's pistol, train robberies were relatively safe compared to operating trains. Statistics for 1889 from the Interstate Commerce Commission revealed 2,000 rail workers killed and over 20,000 injured on the job.


Butch Cassidy and the boys liked to drink. So much so that they shot up a bar in Baggs, Wyoming, paid the bartender $1 for each bullet hole, and he made enough money to open a new bar in Rawlins. Butch and other outlaws hiding out in Brown's Park may have enjoyed batches of moonshine from this still at the John Jarvie Ranch. — Photograph: Courtesy of Andrew Gulliford.
Butch Cassidy and the boys liked to drink. So much so that they shot up a bar in Baggs, Wyoming, paid the bartender $1 for each
bullet hole, and he made enough money to open a new bar in Rawlins. Butch and other outlaws hiding out in Brown's Park may
have enjoyed batches of moonshine from this still at the John Jarvie Ranch. — Photograph: Courtesy of Andrew Gulliford.


The John Jarvie Ranch, now an historic site administered by the Bureau of Land Management in Brown's Park, in northwestern Colorado, includes this cellar reputed to be one of Butch's hideouts. — Photograph: Courtesy of Andrew Gulliford.
The John Jarvie Ranch, now an historic site administered by the Bureau of Land Management in Brown's Park, in northwestern
Colorado, includes this cellar reputed to be one of Butch's hideouts. — Photograph: Courtesy of Andrew Gulliford.


At Tipton, Wyoming, a masked robber crawled over the tender and told the engineer, “slow down when you see a fire along the track and don't try any funny stuff.” The engineer complied. Soon valuable express shipments carried extra guards with repeating shotguns. Rumors abounded of the potential use of Gatling guns. Butch had second thoughts, too, but he wanted one last heist before moving to South America.

Under Butch's leadership the final exploit of the Wild Bunch occurred near Wagner, Montana, where on July 3rd, 1901, the boys held up a Great Northern train. After uncoupling the express car and using their trademark dynamite to open the safe, they took $40,000 in unsigned banknotes. The funds would help Butch and the Sundance Kid begin a ranch in Argentina.

They supplemented their ranch income by robbing Bolivian banks, but Butch never got proficient speaking Spanish. He missed the soiled doves in Fort Worth, and there were few female companions on the Argentine pampas. In 1908, Robert Leroy Parker (Butch) and Harry Longabaugh (Sundance) robbed their last train near Eucalyptus, Bolivia. The robbers made off with $90,000 in cash. Perhaps they needed the money, or maybe they did it for old-time's sake.

The cowboy outlaw era ended with Butch. Robbing trains became a thing of the past, but at the turn of the century, railroad executives did their own thieving by conspiring to fix high freight rates which forced small farmers into bankruptcy. Charles Kelly wrote of the Wild Bunch, “These wild, free souls saw great fortunes being made all around them by cattle kings, railroad magnates and mining nabobs who got there first…. Cowboy-outlaws resented this attitude and felt no twinges of conscience whatever in robbing railroads, mines and banks.”

Who was robbing whom? If Butch and the boys stole a few dollars, the unregulated railroad industry squandered human lives. In 1907 unsafe working conditions and long hours killed 4,354 railroad workers, and countless accidents injured thousands more. Folksinger Woody Guthrie said it best when he wrote “The Ballad of Jesse James” about another famous train robber. Guthrie penned:

As through this world I wander, I meet lots of funny men;
Some men rob you with a six-gun, some with a fountain pen;
As through this world I wander, and through this world I roam;
I never saw an outlaw drive a family from their home.


Andrew Gulliford is a professor of history at Fort Lewis College. His grandfather was a railroad detective on the Great Northern Railway.

Next month in Gulliford's Travels: Searching for the Sundance Kid and outlaw hideouts in Montezuma County.

http://www.durangoherald.com/article/20120913/COLUMNISTS02/120919815
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« Reply #6 on: August 28, 2015, 08:15:13 pm »


from THE DURANGO HERALD....

Searching for Sundance

Place of death a mystery, but he lived and hid out in southwest Colorado.

By ANDREW GULLIFORD | 3:05PM - Friday, October 12, 2012

This famous photograph of the Sundance Kid and the beautiful Etta Place was taken in New York City after he had bought her an expensive diamond watch at Tiffany's. The watch is pinned to her blouse. Questions remain about whether Sundance died in a shootout with the Bolivian Army, but even less is known about Etta, though on July 29th, 1905 the S.S. Seguranca arrived in New York City from Panama and on board was a Mrs. E. Place. Rumors persist that she went on to San Francisco and disappeared after the 1906 earthquake. — Photograph: Courtesy of Andrew Gulliford.
This famous photograph of the Sundance Kid and the beautiful Etta Place was taken in New York City
after he had bought her an expensive diamond watch at Tiffany's. The watch is pinned to her blouse.
Questions remain about whether Sundance died in a shootout with the Bolivian Army, but even less
is known about Etta, though on July 29th, 1905 the S.S. Seguranca arrived in New York City from
Panama and on board was a Mrs. E. Place. Rumors persist that she went on to San Francisco and
disappeared after the 1906 earthquake. — Photograph: Courtesy of Andrew Gulliford.


MONTEZUMA COUNTY…

I've followed the Outlaw Trail looking for Butch Cassidy and the Wild Bunch. Butch caroused with a lot of outlaws, but his best friend the Sundance Kid grew up here in Southwest Colorado. I've been searching for Sundance in Cortez and Montezuma County, and I've heard some interesting stories and crawled into an outlaw cave or two.

The thing about an outlaw is you don't claim him as family when he's doing his deeds, but let a century pass and then he's fine to call yours. He's earned his place back on the family tree, but famous Western outlaws have a hard time staying dead and buried.

Harry Alonzo Longabaugh grew up in a blue-collar family in Pennsylvania. At age 14, in 1882, he left home to help distant cousin George Longabaugh, who had moved to Durango. George was lured farther west to homestead near Cortez. Harry stayed with the family for four years but by early 1886 he chose to ride on. Within a year he would be arrested on three counts of grand larceny for horse theft and stealing personal goods “against the peace and dignity of the Territory of Wyoming.” Confined to the county jail in Sundance, Wyoming, he earned the nickname The Sundance Kid.

What prompted his life of crime? What had young Harry learned in Cortez and Montezuma County that suggested horse stealing as an honorable profession? And even after he was convicted and jailed, Sundance was unwilling to accept the judge's decree of an 18-month sentence. Longabaugh and a fellow prisoner attempted an escape on May 1st, 1888, but were returned to their cells. When Sundance served his time and got out of jail, he was not yet 21.

Coming to Cortez at 15, Harry learned to rope and ride and shoot a Colt .45. He knew good horse flesh. He probably knew how to brand cattle not his own, and he learned how to live out of saddle bags and move through the country fast, without being seen. The West was wide open. To a young man with grit and gumption there seemed easier ways to make a living than to settle on a homestead, scrape sagebrush, plow and plant and wait for rain.

Local haunts became outlaw caves and north-south routes became known as the Hoot Owl Trail within a larger Outlaw Trail system between Utah and Wyoming. Desperados or questionable men who kept their hats pulled down low over their eyes were known as Hoot-Owlers. Cattle and horse theft was rampant, and for big outfits like the Carlisle Cattle Company out of Monticello, Utah, that ran thousands of head, who would miss a few unbranded cattle? Most of the petty outlaws stole this and that and remained anonymous. Only Sundance would have his own file created by the Pinkerton Detective Agency and his sister's mail surreptitiously opened.


Bud Poe has worked to conserve thousands of acres in Trail Canyon west of Cortez. On his private land is an outlaw cave impossible to see unless you are 10 feet in front of it. — Photograph: Courtesy of Andrew Gulliford.
Bud Poe has worked to conserve thousands of acres in Trail Canyon west of Cortez. On his private land is an outlaw cave
impossible to see unless you are 10 feet in front of it. — Photograph: Courtesy of Andrew Gulliford.


Once inside the outlaw cave, which is on Bud Poe's property west of Cortez, three to four men could sleep out of the weather and with little chance of being found. — Photograph: Courtesy of Andrew Gulliford.
Once inside the outlaw cave, which is on Bud Poe's property west of Cortez, three to four men could sleep out of the weather
and with little chance of being found. — Photograph: Courtesy of Andrew Gulliford.


An outlaw cave can be found on land Bud Poe owns in Trail Canyon west of Cortez. Poe thinks it may have been a waypoint on the Hoot Owl Trail system with access between the Great Sage Plain and McElmo Canyon.

“It was very exciting to see it for the first time,” Poe says. “Unless you're within 10 feet of the cave, you don't know it's there.”

Though the roof has fallen in and no artifacts or dates were found, there's no question that someone dug out the cave and built a substantial 2-foot-tall berm of rock and dirt at the cave's lip for concealment. Poe said, “You can kind of stand up in the cave. You could get four guys to sleep in it, and down below is evidence of a brush fence to enclose cattle or horses.”

As we stood atop the hideout on a sandstone ledge facing Sleeping Ute Mountain, Poe said, “Sundance may have heard about this cave.” We'll never know, but in Montezuma County, rumors abound.

Longtime rancher Al Heaton has found outlaw hideouts on his range including Squaw Point on Bureau of Land Management land west of Pleasant View. Heaton found rocks built up under an overhang big enough for two people to sleep in with a firepit out front and “a horse corral 500 yards away well secluded from each other.” Heaton adds, “The distance gives it away as an outlaw hideout. Sheepherders would have had their corrals right there.”

He found another site five miles from Slickrock with “a pretty fancy fireplace” and a hidden meadow that “you just have to ride into to see it. You can't see it from across the canyon, and it has feed enough for a month. I found it tracking a cow.”


Archie Hanson, developer of Indian Camp Ranch, has a dugout or cellar on his property which may have been an outlaw hangout. It's been stabilized and no trace of a chimney or stovepipe exists. A source of heat would have been important for a prolonged stay. — Photograph: Courtesy of Andrew Gulliford.
Archie Hanson, developer of Indian Camp Ranch, has a dugout or cellar on his property which may have been an outlaw hangout.
It's been stabilized and no trace of a chimney or stovepipe exists. A source of heat would have been important for a prolonged stay.
 — Photograph: Courtesy of Andrew Gulliford.


Two pieces of metal, one with a cutout for a stovepipe, lie on the ground near the cave entrance, but no other artifacts have been found other than the remains of a brush corral close to the canyon's bottom. — Photograph: Courtesy of Andrew Gulliford.
Two pieces of metal, one with a cutout for a stovepipe, lie on the ground near the cave entrance, but no other artifacts have been
found other than the remains of a brush corral close to the canyon's bottom. — Photograph: Courtesy of Andrew Gulliford.


At Indian Camp Ranch, Archie Hanson has a root cellar that may have been an outlaw hangout, but there's no evidence of habitation even though local legends tell of outlaws using nearby Alkali Creek. Former Cortez barber Carl Armstrong spoke with Walter Longabaugh, who died at 98. The aging Longabaugh told him, “When I was 12 or 14 I carried fresh eggs, milk and butter to the dugout. My mother would fix it all up.” But we're not sure which dugout received the provisions.

What we do know was a famous horse race with Butch and Sundance in McElmo Canyon near Hartman Draw on “a big flat” left a Ute Indian dead and caused the cowboys to flee to Robbers Roost in Utah. Armstrong says, “They had a horse race and bet a horse against a horse. They lived in a dugout and had a run-in with Indians” not over who won the race but what the spoils would be. Guns were drawn over the disagreement and the cowboys slapped leather.

“Once they won a local Mancos horse race, but they didn't take any money out of the country. They gave it all back in the bars and such,” Armstrong said.

In Western history the outgoing, jovial Butch, and the quiet, sharpshooting Sundance made quite a name for themselves. Sundance took up with the beautiful Etta Place and bought her a diamond watch at Tiffany's in New York. They went on to rob banks and trains but never small homesteaders or ranchers. It's still a mystery where Butch and Sundance lived and hid out in Montezuma County, but in the end they died in a shootout with the Bolivian army in 1908. Or did they? Into the 1930s there were supposed sightings of Butch across the West.

Donna B. Ernst wrote The Sundance Kid (University of Oklahoma Press, 2009) and it is a standard reference, but there's a new book by Marilyn Grace titled Finding the Sundance Kid: Solving the Wild Bunch Mystery. She dug up a grave in Duchesne, Utah, and claims DNA testing on the remains proves it was Sundance, buried in 1936 under the alias William Henry Long.

Duchesne Mayor Rojean Rowley agrees: “They've dug up this grave three times and it's my understanding that it's the Sundance Kid. It's an outlaw with a hole in his leg, though there's controversy among the family about it.”

That's the thing about famous outlaws. They ride the Outlaw Trail and not only do their legends live on, they won't stay dead and buried.


Andrew Gulliford is a professor of history and Environmental Studies at Fort Lewis College.

EDITOR'S NOTE: This is the second of a two-part series. The first discussed Butch Cassidy and train robberies and appeared on September 13th.

http://www.durangoherald.com/article/20121014/COLUMNISTS02/121019884
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« Reply #7 on: August 28, 2015, 09:37:33 pm »

ss...."do we really want or need to have shops open everyday"


...uhm....if  some people want to open...and others want to buy...why not...what business is it of a religion to tell other people what they should be doing...the catholics need only pay attention to the fairy tales which rule their own lives Roll Eyes

One thing that has always puzzled me about how we observe Easter - If Christ rose from the dead after 3 days, and he died on Good Friday (after only being on the cross for several hours rather than the days it took for most crucified people to die) how come we celebrate his resurrection 2 days later on Sunday?

How did that logic flaw come about?

I know there is an explanation somewhere...something about it being a week long festival starting on a Wednesday and ending the following Tuesday Huh Maundy Thursday anyone?

I do know that the date for Easter is set using the luna calendar- sort of - Good Friday is always the Friday nearest the first full moon after equinox. Eastern Orthodox churches use a different calendar. Their Easter can be (but not always) on a different week. Ironically the Jewish calendar is wildly different again - Easter should occur about the same time/just after the Jewish Passover. The Last Supper was a Passover meal.

Historically we have a much better idea of the date of the crucifixion of Jesus than we do of most other biblical events i.e. his birth.

All of that rather makes a bit of a mockery of the whole public holiday as religious observance idea.
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« Reply #8 on: August 29, 2015, 09:45:38 am »

ss...."One thing that has always puzzled me about how we observe Easter - If Christ rose from the dead after 3 days..."


..that's where you are going wrong...he didn't...its a fairy tale...believed only by those who are greedy enough to want to exist forever...


...remember the great words....something like...

"eternity is for the species...not the individual"...
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« Reply #9 on: August 29, 2015, 10:07:30 pm »

ss...."One thing that has always puzzled me about how we observe Easter - If Christ rose from the dead after 3 days..."


..that's where you are going wrong...he didn't...its a fairy tale...believed only by those who are greedy enough to want to exist forever...


...remember the great words....something like...

"eternity is for the species...not the individual"...

Point missed - as per usual.
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« Reply #10 on: August 30, 2015, 10:01:23 am »

nah...I get the piont


...the catholic church... true to form, wants to control our lives...even those who do not subscribe to their fairy tale beliefs....
..thanks for the offer..but i am happy to control my own life...thanks Grin
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« Reply #11 on: September 02, 2015, 09:16:28 am »

Great to have confirmation that the catholics have control over my life...what a relief this is... Roll Eyes


..what a pack of greedy for eternity wankers
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« Reply #12 on: September 02, 2015, 01:45:35 pm »


Did you forget to take your “chill pill” this morning? 
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« Reply #13 on: September 02, 2015, 04:56:19 pm »

..no I forgot to take my..."desire to be controlled by people who believe in fairy tales" pill

...I think you must be taking mine and yours..that would explain your ellvated levels of desire to be controlled Roll Eyes
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« Reply #14 on: September 08, 2015, 11:42:07 pm »


from The Washington Post....

Conservative dissent is brewing inside the Vatican

By ANTHONY FAIOLA | 7:33PM - Monday, September 07, 2015

U.S. Cardinal Raymond Leo Burke, left, stands by Pope Francis saluting bishops, at the end of weekly general audience in St. Peter's Square at the Vatican, September 2nd, 2015. — Photograph: Alessandra Tarantino/Associated Press.
U.S. Cardinal Raymond Leo Burke, left, stands by Pope Francis saluting bishops, at the end of weekly general audience in St. Peter's Square
at the Vatican, September 2nd, 2015. — Photograph: Alessandra Tarantino/Associated Press.


VATICAN CITY — On a sunny morning earlier this year, a camera crew entered a well-appointed apartment just outside the 9th-century gates of Vatican City. Pristinely dressed in the black robes and scarlet sash of the princes of the Roman Catholic Church, the Wisconsin-born Cardinal Raymond Burke sat in his elaborately upholstered armchair and appeared to issue a warning to Pope Francis.

A staunch conservative and Vatican bureaucrat, Burke had been demoted by the pope a few months earlier, but it did not take the fight out of him. Francis had been backing a more inclusive era, giving space to progressive voices on divorced Catholics as well as gays and lesbians. In front of the camera, Burke said he would “resist” liberal changes — and seemed to caution Francis about the limits of his authority. “One must be very attentive regarding the power of the pope,” Burke told the French news crew.

Burke's words belied a growing sense of alarm among strict conservatives, exposing what is fast emerging as a culture war over Francis's papacy and the powerful hierarchy that governs the Roman Catholic Church.

This month, Francis makes his first trip to the United States at a time when his progressive allies are heralding him as a revolutionary, a man who only last week broadened the power of priests to forgive women who commit what Catholic teachings call the “mortal sin” of abortion during his newly declared “year of mercy” starting in December. On Sunday, he called for “every” Catholic parish in Europe to offer shelter to one refugee family from the thousands of asylum-seekers risking all to escape war-torn Syria and other pockets of conflict and poverty.

Yet as he upends church convention, Francis also is grappling with a conservative backlash to the liberal momentum building inside the church. In more than a dozen interviews, including with seven senior church officials, insiders say the change has left the hierarchy more polarized over the direction of the church than at any point since the great papal reformers of the 1960s.

The conservative rebellion is taking on many guises, in public comments, yes, but also in the rising popularity of conservative Catholic Web sites promoting Francis dissenters; books and promotional materials backed by conservative clerics seeking to counter the liberal trend; and leaks to the news media, aimed at Vatican reformers.

In his recent comments, Burke was also merely stating fact. Despite the vast powers of the pope, church doctrine serves as a kind of constitution. And for liberal reformers, the bruising theological pushback by conservatives is complicating efforts to translate the pope's transformative style into tangible changes.

“At least we aren't poisoning each other's chalices anymore,” said the Rev. Timothy Radcliffe, a liberal British priest and Francis ally appointed to an influential Vatican post in May. Radcliffe said he welcomed open debate, even critical dissent within the church. But he professed himself as being “afraid” of “some of what we're seeing.”


Testing newfound freedom

Rather than stake out clear stances, the pope is more subtly, often implicitly, backing liberal church leaders who are pressing for radical change, while dramatically opening the parameters of the debate over how far reforms can go. For instance, during the opening of a major synod, or meeting, of senior bishops on the family last year, Francis told those gathered, “Let no one say, ‘This you cannot say’.”

Since then, liberals have tested the boundaries of their new freedom, with one Belgian bishop going as far as openly calling for the Catholic Church to formally recognize same-sex couples.

Conservatives counter that in the current climate of rising liberal thought, they have been thrust unfairly into a position in which “defending the real teachings of the church makes you look like an enemy of the pope,” a conservative and senior Vatican official said on the condition of anonymity in order to speak freely.

“We have a serious issue right now, a very alarming situation where Catholic priests and bishops are saying and doing things that are against what the church teaches, talking about same-sex unions, about Communion for those who are living in adultery,” the official said. “And yet the pope does nothing to silence them. So the inference is that this is what the pope wants.”


The contention within

A measure of the church's long history of intrigue has spilled into the Francis papacy, particularly as the pope has ordered radical overhauls of murky Vatican finances. Under Francis, the top leadership of the Vatican Bank was ousted, as was the all-Italian board of its financial watchdog agency.

One method of pushback has been to give damaging leaks to the Italian news media. Vatican officials are now convinced that the biggest leak to date — of the papal encyclical on the environment in June — was driven by greed (it was sold to the media) rather than vengeance. But other disclosures have targeted key figures in the papal cleanup — including the conservative chosen to lead the pope's financial reforms, the Australian Cardinal George Pell, who in March was the subject of a leak about his allegedly lavish personal tastes.

More often, dissent unfolds on ideological grounds. Criticism of a sitting pope is hardly unusual — liberal bishops on occasion challenged Benedict. But in an institution cloaked in traditional fealty to the pope, what shocks many is just how public the criticism of Francis has become.

In an open letter to his diocese, Bishop Thomas Tobin of Providence, Rhode Island, wrote: “In trying to accommodate the needs of the age, as Pope Francis suggests, the Church risks the danger of losing its courageous, countercultural, prophetic voice, one that the world needs to hear.” For his part, Burke, the cardinal from Wisconsin, has called the church under Francis “a ship without a rudder.”

Even Pell appeared to undermine him on theological grounds. Commenting on the pope's call for dramatic action on climate change, Pell told the Financial Times in July, “The church has got no mandate from the Lord to pronounce on scientific matters.”

In conservative circles, the word “confusion” also has become a euphemism for censuring the papacy without mentioning the pope. In one instance, 500 Catholic priests in Britain drafted an open letter this year that cited “much confusion” in “Catholic moral teaching” following the bishops' conference on the family last year in which Francis threw open the floodgates of debate, resulting in proposed language offering an embraceable, new stance for divorced or gay Catholics.

That language ultimately was watered down in a vote that showed the still-ample power of conservatives. It set up another showdown for next month, when senior church leaders will meet in a follow-up conference that observers predict will turn into another theological slugfest. The pope himself will have the final word on any changes next year.

Conservatives have launched a campaign against a possible policy change that would grant divorced and remarried Catholics the right to take Communion at Mass. Last year, five senior leaders including Burke and the conservative Cardinal Carlo Caffarra of Bologna, Italy, drafted what has become known as “the manifesto” against such a change. In July, a DVD distributed to hundreds of dioceses in Europe and Australia, and backed by conservative Catholic clergy members, made the same point. In it, Burke, who has made similar arguments at a string of Catholic conferences, issued dire warnings of a world in which traditional teachings are ignored.

But this is still the Catholic Church, where hierarchical respect is as much tradition as anything else. Rather than targeting the pope, conservative bishops and cardinals more often take aim at their liberal peers. They include the German Cardinal Walter Kasper, who has suggested that he has become a proxy for clergy members who are not brave enough to criticize the pope directly.

Yet conservatives counter that liberals are overstepping their bounds, putting their own spin on the pronouncements of a pope who has been more ambiguous than Kasper and his allies are willing to admit.

“I was born a papist, I have lived as a papist, and I will die a papist,” Caffarra said. “The pope has never said that divorced and remarried Catholics should be able to take Holy Communion, and yet, his words are being twisted to give them false meaning.”

Some of the pope's allies insist that debate is precisely what Francis wants.

“I think that people are speaking their mind because they feel very strongly and passionately in their position, and I don't think the Holy Father sees it as a personal attack on him,” said Chicago Archbishop Blase J. Cupich, considered a close ally of the pope. “The Holy Father has opened the possibility for these matters to be discussed openly; he has not predetermined where this is going.”


Stefano Pitrelli contributed to this report.

• Anthony Faiola is The Washington Post's Berlin bureau chief. Faiola joined the Post in 1994, since then reporting for the paper from six continents and serving as bureau chief in Tokyo, Buenos Aires, New York and London.

__________________________________________________________________________

Read more on this topic:

 • What has Pope Francis actually accomplished? Here’s a look at 7 of his most notable statements.

 • Pope Francis emphasizes forgiveness for women who have abortions

 • Pope to release new marriage annulment process

 • A pope beloved by many secular intellectuals is also passionate about miracles and relics

 • Washington revs up plans for Pope Francis's historic September visit

 • Pope Francis will visit Central Park during his trip to the U.S.

 • Reflections on Pope Francis from 35,000 feet


https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/a-conservative-revolt-is-brewing-inside-the-vatican/2015/09/07/1d8e02ba-4b3d-11e5-80c2-106ea7fb80d4_story.html
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If you aren't living life on the edge, you're taking up too much space! 
reality
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« Reply #15 on: September 13, 2015, 08:30:55 pm »

..are they to busy trying to line up the next child victims to care..

...they like to control peoples lives..and all the sheep in the flock suck it up Shocked

..always wondered why the punters were called the "flock" Grin




Why the Catholic Church should talk about contraception
 Under Pope Francis, the Catholic Church is rethinking many of its previously held stances. Why has contraception been left out of the discussion?
Robert Banks
Under Pope Francis, the Catholic Church is rethinking many of its previously held stances. Why has contraception been left out of the discussion?

When Pope Francis arrives in Washington this month, he'll be greeted enthusiastically. Among American Catholics, the pope is remarkably popular — 87 percent have a favourable opinion of him — and he's the US. church's best chance of overcoming a bad case of spiritual anaemia.

But excitement alone cannot heal one of the deepest rifts in Catholic life, not only among American Catholics but worldwide. It has to do with sexuality, although not the priest abuse scandals that have quite properly received attention in recent years. Nothing has divided the church more than its prohibition against contraception, even among married couples.

Approximately 80 percent of US. Catholics, including the thoroughly devout, disagree with that stance (support for changing the ruling is nearly as high around the world). And the vast majority ignore the teaching altogether — one study suggests that 68 percent of sexually active American Catholic women have used birth control, sterilisation or IUDs.

Perhaps the fact that so many Catholics shrug off the condemnation tempts church leaders to imagine the question is moot. Aren't there bigger things to think about?

Indeed, while Pope Francis has again and again called for a more responsive church, he has shown little interest in revisiting its teaching on contraception.

Although he has derided the notion that being Catholic means reproducing "like rabbits," he has praised Humanae Vitae, the 1968 encyclical that reaffirmed the church's birth-control prohibition.

At last October's Extraordinary Synod on the Family, bishops grabbed headlines by debating controversial topics such as admitting remarried Catholics to Communion and acknowledging the upsides of same-sex relationships. But the discussion of contraception was perfunctory.

The bishops simply called on the church to do a better job of propagating "the message of the encyclical Humanae Vitae." In other words, the widespread rejection of the birth-control ban is simply a messaging problem.

That's not true. The church's unwillingness to grapple with a deep and highly visible gap between official teaching and actual practice undermines Catholic vigour and unity at every level.

It encourages Catholics to disregard all manner of other teachings, including those on marriage and abortion. If the church wants to restore its moral authority, it must address this gnawing question.

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The church's sexual norms were woven out of the Old Testament, apostolic injunctions and classical doctrines such as Stoicism, which held passion suspect and condemned sexual acts not directed toward procreation as "against nature."

But unlike, say, adultery or fornication or defining the conditions of a valid marriage, contraception was a relatively marginal issue until the 20th century, when reliable methods replaced a brew of folk remedies. Before that, birth control was associated with prostitution or illicit sex and decried by virtually all Christian churches.

When Anglican churches broke that pattern in 1930, followed by many Protestant denominations, Pope Pius XI reacted with a stern encyclical reasserting the condemnation. Opposition to birth control soon became a kind of identifying mark of Catholicism.

By mid-century, though, resolve had begun to weaken.

The Second Vatican Council had transformed Catholicism, and theologians were stressing the emotional, bonding aspects of marital sex along with the procreative. The emergence of the birth-control pill in 1960 led some theologians to argue that whatever general principles of sexual morality one might draw from human "nature," they did not extend to specific judgments about particular methods and uses of birth control.

The faithful seemed to agree — by 1965, 61 percent of US. Catholics thought the church would eventually allow contraception.

That was also the thinking of the high-powered Pontifical Commission for the Study of Population, Family and Births, established by Pope John XXIII in 1963 and renewed in 1964 by his successor Pope Paul VI.

By late June 1966, an overwhelming majority of the commission — made up mostly of cardinals and bishops, along with theologians, scientists and lay people — concluded that the church should no longer condemn contraception as "intrinsically evil." The commission's recommendation was eventually leaked to the press.

The pope stayed silent, though, for two years. Meanwhile, as scholar Robert McClory wrote, "married couples, unwilling to put their marital lives on hold, made practical decisions on the morality of contraception, more and more often with the approval of priests and bishops."

Finally, in July 1968, Pope Paul VI rejected his commission's recommendation. The world's bishops fell in line but with noticeable hemming and hawing. A public protest, signed by more than 600 prominent Catholic scholars, argued that spouses could responsibly decide "according to their conscience" to use artificial birth control.

Ironically, a handful of conservative prelates and theologians had warned Pope Paul VI that accepting the commission's recommendation would severely damage papal authority which is exactly what happened when he rejected it.

Sociologists, theologians, pastors and bishops have dated a sapping of Catholic confidence in other church teachings about sexuality, and indeed in church authority in general, to the 1968 encyclical.

Some researchers have linked frustration over the measure with declines in church attendance, financial contributions and parental support for sons to enter the priesthood.

The prominent Catholic theologian Bernard Haring went so far as to write that "no papal teaching document has ever caused such an earthquake in the Church as the encyclical 'Humanae Vitae.' "

Many Catholics now disregard the church's teachings on premarital sex, same-sex unions and divorce.

According to a recent Pew poll, 70 percent of American Catholics believe it's acceptable for same-sex couples to live together; 86 percent say premarital cohabitation among heterosexual couples is fine. Fewer than half say homosexual behaviour or remarriage without annulment is a sin.

Meanwhile, an outspoken conservative minority insists on making opposition to contraception a litmus test for separating "faithful Catholics" from "dissenters," and the past two popes seemed to count it far more than many other qualifications in naming new bishops. In short, the contraception issue has injected paralysing doses of tension, suspicion, dissemblance and dysfunction throughout Catholic life.

So an American hierarchy that had long campaigned for the "right to health care" gets bogged down in political opposition to the Affordable Care Act.

Outstanding Catholic efforts to serve AIDS victims in Africa are discredited by a doctrinaire anti-condom stance in Rome. Advocacy for impoverished families in the Philippines and elsewhere is contradicted by political lobbying against workable birth-control programs.

In October, the church will have a chance to tackle this issue at a follow-up synod, with a somewhat different cast of bishops. Though their final report is not binding, Pope Francis has indicated that he'll take their advice very seriously.

This time, they should take the opportunity to treat what has been ailing the church since 1968. First, the synod should stop handling Catholics' massive rejection of the birth-control ban as merely a problem requiring more effective church teaching, rather than something requiring more church learning.

Second, they must stop couching the issue of whether married couples should use contraception in vague, elevated code language like "openness to life" or loving "fully" or returning to the "message" of Humanae Vitae.

Instead, the synod should acknowledge that the decades of division turn entirely on a handful of sentences in that encyclical. These do not deal with anti-life values or selfish patterns of behaviour.

Rather they make a very specific judgment about the nature of sexual intercourse: Anything done to prevent conception in any instance whatsoever of intercourse by married couples — regardless of the circumstances, the spouses' intentions or the seriousness of their reasons — is "intrinsically wrong." Is the moral reasoning leading to that unconditional judgment valid?

The issue, in other words, is not Humanae Vitae's other insights about married love, the sexual revolution or the potential misuses of humanity's newfound power over reproduction. Nor is it the efficacy or benefits of "natural family planning" (in which sexual intercourse is limited to times of infertility).

Nor is the issue the threat of overpopulation or underpopulation, or imposing Western neocolonial values on other cultures. These may be legitimate concerns, but they do not underpin or necessarily lead to Pope Paul VI's fateful ruling.

Obviously, in a three-week session crowded with other topics, the synod cannot resolve a problem festering since 1968. But besides outlining the conflict in clear terms — and perhaps acknowledging the sincerity and moral seriousness of those on both sides — the synod could propose a renewed examination of church teaching on marriage and sexuality, perhaps to mark the 50th anniversary of Humanae Vitae in 2018.

That might involve a rereading of the encyclical in view of its historical context: the disruption of the pill and the sexual revolution combined with anxiety about doctrinal authority in the wake of the Second Vatican Council.

After all, the council itself, by calling for freedom of religion and support for human rights, officially reversed teachings expressed in encyclicals by 19th-century popes traumatised by the French Revolution — teachings that, in ways similar to the treatment of contraception today, many Catholic thinkers and leaders, both clerical and lay, had long been questioning in principle and ignoring in practice.

But what about Pope Francis, to whom the coming synod will submit its recommendations? One can picture him criticising contraception as a symptom of the wealthy West's impulse to control nature through technology. One can also imagine that he might prefer to see the condemnation of contraception maintained in principle while bent to the needs of the poor or the burdened in practice. He has not shown himself overly worried about consistency.

It is hard to see, however, how preaching an absolute rule while excusing lots of exceptions could resolve the church's credibility gap or heal its internal division. Too many Catholics would be likely to find that solution not only inconsistent but offensive.

In fact, Pope Francis's most relevant comment about how the upcoming synod should handle this question didn't mention contraception at all. It was the mandate he gave to the bishops at the opening of last year's synod. "Speaking honestly," he insisted, was the their basic responsibility. They should speak their minds "without polite deference, without hesitation."

If the church is to speak honestly about a range of pressing sexual issues, the first step will be for its leaders to speak honestly about contraception.

Peter Steinfels is the author of "A People Adrift: The Crisis of the Roman Catholic Church in America" and a former religion correspondent for the New York Times.

 - The Washington Post
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« Reply #16 on: November 03, 2015, 08:05:48 am »

..yup.... Roll Eyes

Controversial US academic likens religious education in schools to child abuse  video
KATE AUBUSSON
Last updated 07:36, November 3 2015

US biologist and ecologist Dr Paul Ehlrich stirs up the panel of ABC's Q&A by suggesting that religious education is akin to child abuse.

A US academic has strayed into a minefield by suggesting religious education and child abuse are one and the same.

Biology and global population researcher Dr Paul Ehrlich appeared on Australia's Q&A programme, where he said schoolchildren shouldn't be taught about "supernatural monsters".

His comments were triggered by the panel's discussion of a Melbourne school principal's decision to excuse a Shiite Muslim students from singing the Australian national anthem if they were observing Muharram, a month of mourning in which Shiites do not participate in joyful events, including singing.


Host Tony Jones had asked Ehrlich whether he sang the US national anthem when he was at school.

"We did, but we didn't have child abuse required in those days, we didn't have any religious instructions in the schools," the Stanford University professor replied.

"Did you just say religious instruction is child abuse?" Jones asked the outspoken panellist.

"That's what Richard Dawkins and lots of other people have said, that you teach people details about non-existent supernatural monsters and then behave in reaction to what you think they are telling you," Ehrlich said.

"That's child abuse. You don't raise your kids that way," he said, adding the qualifier: "I don't want to be outrageous".

Then, hot on the heels of calling the gods of devout religious followers "supernatural monsters", he urged the Q&A audience to be respectful of religious differences.

"We are a very social animal we've got to learn to live in groups of millions and billions, which means ... you've got to give some space for other people, or you will be in a constant war and so it's something that we ought to be discussing all the time," he said.


"Other people are going to have different views," said Ehrlich.

Ehrlich is no stranger to making controversial remarks: in June, he warned Earth is on the brink of mass extinction - nearly 50 years since his first such warning failed to come to fruition.

 - Sydney Morning Herald

 
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« Reply #17 on: August 08, 2017, 11:32:07 pm »

 Oh...the pope don't like Trump...why does that make me feel so good😜


Pope Francis attacks conservative Catholics - and Trump?

Someone brought a dog to mass at my parish this weekend. It lay smack in the middle of the main aisle, forcing parishioners to edge around it. No one said anything, but the symbolism was not lost on some in attendance: dogs may be going to church, but the universal Roman Catholic Church is going to the dogs.

Under Pope Francis, the church has abandoned many of its bedrock positions on issues like divorce and homosexuality in favor of a “why not?” attitude. Francis has scolded people for being rich, sided with illegal immigrants, and suggested the church should be a refuge for the poor.

He has sidelined conservative cardinals, installed like-minded allies in key jobs, taken personal control of the Knights of Malta for defying him, and generally sent the signal that behind his amiable smile and humble talk lurks a radically liberal agenda.

The latest example of the pope’s blueprint for the future is contained in an article penned by two of his closest confidantes. They believe that conservative Catholics in the United States have formed a coalition with Evangelical Protestants to push Donald Trump’s agenda, which the authors call a “Manichean vision.” The article, in the Jesuit publication La Civiltà Cattolica, could not have been printed without Francis’s knowledge and approval.

The pope left little doubt about his feelings toward Trump when the president and first lady visited the Vatican earlier this year. In their joint photo, Francis frowns as if he smelled something bad in the room.

In addition to rejecting Trump’s worldview, the article’s authors single out White House strategist Stephen Bannon as a “supporter of apocalyptic geopolitics.”

 “The pope is expressing his displeasure at the election of Donald Trump as president and with the Catholics who voted for him,” says Deal Hudson, former Catholic Outreach director for the Republican National Committee. “It came as a huge surprise to the establishment of the church, who were pulling for Hillary Clinton.”

Now, says Hudson, the pope is wielding his power as CEO of the Church to tell American Catholics “we are bad Christians. This was his way of calling us a basket of deplorables without using that phrase.”

 “This pope does not like the culture war,” says Robert Royal, president of the Faith and Reason Institute and a commentator on the Catholic network EWTN. “The real tragedy is they’re trying to discredit some types of religious action in the public square, while they are very active in advocating for the environment, immigrants and stopping human trafficking.”

Francis can run the church any way he wants. But demonizing conservative American Catholics is a risky business. They have deep pockets and long memories.

It is, in the end, a dog eat dog world – and church.
Fox

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